“He who marches out of step, hears another drum.” Randle McMurphy, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

Aren’t we all just marching to our own drum, the one we hear inside our head? Some maybe more than others, sometimes even the whole country marching out of step with itself? A powerful stage play, which started life as a novel by the same name and later went on to become an iconic film of the mid 1970’s, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest addresses a great many topics of interest, not the least of which being how mental illness is handled in American culture. Taking on such a challenging production, Showcase On Main returns to live-stage performances with this play running for three weekends through the middle of March. In sit-down, TheatreBloom exclusive interview, we’ve taken a moment to chat with the two principal leads of the production to get their take on the overall experience.

You are Melanie Bishop—

Melanie Bishop: Yes, that’s right.

And you are Lance Bankerd—

Lance Bankerd: So they say. At least— this week.

See? Already we’re off to a great start. And you two are playing Nurse Ratched and Randle McMurphy, respectively, in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. What was the draw and attraction to want to be a part of this show?

Lance: My relationship with this production started pre-pandemic. For me, it’s been a while coming. Lee (Director Lee Lewis) and I have a relationship where a lot of times we’ll trade-off shows for various favors. I lucked out in that my traded-in favor was for something so awesome.

Melanie: I think I would have played a dog in the corner to be in theatre again; I’ve missed it so much. My life just turned upside-down, like everybody’s and I have just been craving a show— any show. To be able to do this show is amazing. The draw is being on stage and actually having such an excellent cast. That’s my favorite part, actually, the rehearsal process. The show is just sort of a by-product. I love this experience, the rehearsal process, even tech week!

You’re both playing THE iconic roles that come attached to this production. As mentioned, Lance, you’re playing McMurphy, and Melanie, you’re playing Nurse Ratched. What is that like, getting to embody and then make your own these very, very iconic roles? I know with McMurphy it potentially comes with certain Jack Nicholson expectations, and then quite recently with Sarah Paulson doing the Ryan Murphy-world Netflix series, Ratched, she is now comes potentially attached to the expectations of that character as well.

Melanie: So I actually haven’t watched that series yet. Not yet. I purposefully have not done that!

Wow! That’s impressive. Okay, even without having seen the series, what is it like for you guys going up against some of these icons? Are you trying to channel some of what comes along with those big names from film and television, are you— like you said, Melanie— avoiding knowing what those actors have done so that you can exclusively do your own thing? What has that been like for you?

Melanie: Can I go first? It was amazing— and maybe it’s just me— but I found it amazing how different the play is from the movie, which I saw so long ago. There’s so much more emotion that you see in Ratched in the play than what you see in the movie. She played a very subdued character, very quiet, very monotone, and she did it very effectively, but I don’t find that the play is written that way at all. And like I said, I haven’t seen any of the Sarah Paulson stuff. I’ve just been trying to follow the script to get her mindset. It is difficult in some ways for me. In most roles I find places where I can fall back on my own impulse as a decent human being as a mother or a sister, what have you, but in this particular role there aren’t any places where you can really fall back on your own impulses, at least I hope not. It’s just so very different from who I am and who most people are. It’s kind of freeing but it’s also kind of difficult because you can’t just fall back on your impulse.

Lance: I think it’s fair to say that your Ratched is closer to the book because I think the play is closer to the book than certainly the film. The film is this whole other thing. Louise Fletcher (actress playing Nurse Ratched in the 1975 film) is her own Ratched. I think Sarah Paulson (actress playing Nurse Ratched in the 2020 television drama series Ratched) is too because the Ryan Murphy (series creator of Ratched) universe is very divergent from what we get in the book. We both read the book to get ready for this.

Melanie: I haven’t actually finished the book yet— I’m close! But I know what happens!

Lance: Spoilers— it ends pretty much the same way as the play. But that’s interesting because the movie doesn’t! The movie is totally different from the source material. The relationship between Ratched and McMurphy is the whole show. So what is effective about Melanie’s Ratched is that she makes me better. You can only be as good as the person that you’re playing with in this case because it’s that tight of a relationship, even when they’re not on stage together. We don’t really have a ton of time on stage together, which is wild, but that’s what makes it effective and makes it important.

I think that Melanie is letting the text tell her, rather than saying “well, if I just nicen her up…” because there is a version of this where you could easily make Nurse Ratched the victim of a really awful person. McMurphy on page is pretty deplorable. Especially by our modern sensibilities; his ‘boy’s club’ mentality— and we’re better now— makes it easy for her to be a victim in this show if you play her nice. But I think Melanie being able to tune into the controlling, diminishing, cruelty of Ratched makes it so that it still reeks. It makes it so that this show becomes that moment of “Oh my God. She’s going to do this horrible thing. And this dimwit can’t get his shit together enough to do anything about it.” You feel those powerful, elemental forces at work between them because of how she’s bringing Ratched to the table.

You mentioned that this is very different from the film, which is arguably the format that most people are familiar with when it comes to One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (the rising familiarity of what is colloquially dubbed ‘origin story’ featured in Ratched notwithstanding). How else is it different?

Lance: The play concentrates a lot more on Chief. Chief is center, not us. We’re just characters in this weird thing that Chief is experiencing. Getting back to the previous question— it’s nice to get a little lost in the material that way, because focusing on those differences takes you away from what other people have done, especially because we’re doing something different. If I were to do a Jack Nicholson impression that would be awful. I’m not good at it. And people would feel like it was just weird because it doesn’t fit into this show. The people who could call me out and say “you’re stealing stuff” would be anyone who saw Kirk Douglas in the original stage production in 1962 because the play was written for Kirk Douglas.

Melanie: I did not know that!

Lance: Oh yeah. When you read the play, you can see Kirk Douglas, especially if you’ve just watched 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and then read the play, it just clicks. Fortunately, everybody’s dead who might have seen Kirk Douglas in that performance. I mean, you might be able to find an octogenarian who you can bring in here and see this and then they might say, “Oh, you’re stealing from Kirk Douglas.” But you know what? That’s fair and I stand by it. I think you have to break it down— you break it down from that caricature point of art. This play is good because it’s not the movie and it will be something else for people to discover and take with them.

What would you say has been the biggest challenge for you in taking on Ratched and McMurphy?

(From way at the back of the theatre) Lee Lewis: Working with me!

Melanie: He’s not wrong! I’m kidding, I love working with Lee. The biggest challenge? Oh boy. Oh boy, my mind just went blank.

See this is a rookie mistake, Melanie. Not letting Lance answer first. Not giving yourself extra time to think while he gives his cerebrally steeped answer.

Lance: I got this. The hardest challenge? Doing a show for the first time in two years.

Melanie: Yeah. I feel like we all went from back-to-back-to-back shows to nothing. And it wasn’t like it was just nothing— it was fear. There was anxiety because nobody knew— was it ever coming back? And then there was all the other anxiety— about your loved ones, about yourself— it was fear and isolation and anxiety and nothing. But on top of all that, coming back to live theatre and I may have already touched on it, but my biggest challenge with Ratched is that I would like to think that I am nothing like her. I would like to think that I am a fairly decent human being. Not being able to fall on your own impulses as an actor. At least for me, there are so many times when working through a character where I find myself asking, “okay, how would I react?” And sometimes it’s, “how would I react as this character?” But so many times that how basically me as a human would come to the same decision, action or response, empathy or sympathy, but there is none of that with Nurse Ratched.

Lance: It’s a harder row for you to hoe because you are standing in for the combine, the machine of society. As Ratched, you’re a robot. But I’m a monkey. McMurphy is all impulse.

Ratched: That’s exactly right. Ratched sees this control of McMurphy, of everything. This is so much more— this is not a job for her, this is her very existence. And when something threatens that existence, she is then fighting for her very survival in the show. I don’t think it’s just a part of her or her just trying to be mean, this is her fighting for her very life. This is as much a part of her as anything else. And she has nothing outside of it— this is her existence.

Lance: The film really hits on that— there is this great scene where they’re in the staff meeting, it’s all male doctors and Nurse Ratched. And they’re discussing what they’re going to do, and then they say “Nurse Ratched?” and they all turn to her for her opinion, and she gives it. I think that was a nice scene for the film to show exactly what you’re talking about.

Do you worry that given the time of the play that it might become uncomfortable for today’s modern sensibilities and today’s audience?

Lance: I think what Lee has done, for as tough as he is to work with— that’s not true, I just like giving him a hard time— he’s doing a really great job of making sure that it reads well. We’re talking about issues of how we deal with mental health and how society treats this people. For Ken Kesey, the author of the novel, the dude had some trauma. The novel is written to take place in the late 50’s and for a person who lives in the northwest and only experienced black people as orderlies in a hospital, he missed the boat completely on handling race. It’s crazy how much he missed. Like he can see that how we (at the time) treated Native Americans was wrong, the way we treated people with mental health issues was wrong, the way we belittled those people in society was wrong, and that all comes out in the novel, but he didn’t have enough information to make the connections that those wrongs were being placed on black people and women too. He didn’t have that vocabulary or knowledge yet. Lee has done a really good job of negotiating what would normally make this show feel very dated and uncomfortable and make it obvious that ‘women taking care of men is a bad thing’. I mean— you could— you can find that text, and you could do that production— it would just be super uncomfortable, so I’m really impressed with how Lee is handling that.

Melanie: Can I just say— and not to kiss butt or nothing—

Lance: Oh please. Lee doesn’t read this stuff. Unless he’s in it.

Melanie: Oh okay good! Lee’s direction is brilliant. There are times when we all just stop because you’re just amazed. I mean, you forget how good he is— because he’s Lee and whatever— but in this process, I think most of us at some point or another had that “oh my God! That’s just downright brilliant. Why didn’t I think of that?” And it’s just brilliant. He’s brilliant.

Lance: Why the hell do you think I do shit with him?

You talked all about how Lee has done a great job of navigating this production to make sure the audiences are not experiencing this butthole-tightening, cringeworthy show, which is great. Would you say there is a moment in this problematic show that really defines what the show is all about for you?

Lance: There are a couple of moments that for the journey are truly iconic. The baseball game— getting to watch the world series and then having to imagine watching it— that whole revolution. The relationship with Chief is one that really touches me a lot. You can follow the journey. He really loves him. For me doing the show, that’s something that didn’t jump off of the page but that we’ve been able to really explore. It’s this very touching, positive, masculine relationship. That’s what’s been a smart move on Lee’s part. Subverting that notion of “we’ve got to be men up against women.” Instead it’s become, “No, we’ve got to have each other’s backs. And we don’t pick on each other, we’re not assholes to each other, we don’t make fun of each other in a way that really hurts our feelings, we touch each other, we give each other hugs, we’re encouraging. We see each other as people, all screwed up as we are— and that’s okay because we still have each other’s backs.”

Melanie: It’s one that I’m still trying to find and I know it’s late in the game, but there is a point where Nurse Ratched views McMurphy as a thorn in her side, who needs to be controlled, and somebody who needs to learn the rules. But at some point, she makes the decision that this is not that. This is someone who she has to fight to the death. And I kind of have an idea of where that is, but there is definitely a place where that transition happens. It stops being about controlling him and starts being about her just wanting to win and her just wanting him gone, in whatever way that happens. He stops being an irritant and starts becoming a nemesis, this mortal enemy. He is no longer a challenge, he is something to be rid of, defeated. I look at this one much more simply than Lance. He’s very cerebral and so smart and interesting. I’m very simple.

Lance: The hilarity of that comment is that I’m playing a fucking animal. McMurphy is not any of all that you just said.

That is fascinating, because I know Lance to be very cerebral and smart just as Melanie has said and yet you’re playing this character, whom you’ve described now several times as nothing but animal impulse, who essentially leads with his emotions, what is that like?

Lance: I don’t feel like it’s any different, really, because it’s all the balance of the Apollonian-Dionysian body-mind thing for every role I play. McMurphy is a thinker. He’s just living in a different world. He’s informed a lot by my oldest brother, who is McMurphy without the charm and the brains. And don’t worry, like Lee, he won’t read this either— and I would say that to his face too. My brother’s informing a role I’m playing, what more does he want? I know when you think about McMurphy without brains or charisma, that doesn’t leave a whole lot and that’s true— I provide the rest. McMurphy is not a stupid guy. It’s important to understand this— and you find this when you look back at him in the book— he’s a Korean War veteran, decorated, lead a POW prisoner escape, and then punched an officer in the face, and got kicked out of the army. And even this scheme— getting setup in the mental hospital— it’s easy for us to look at that and scream “No! Don’t do that!” because we all know what’s going to happen. But he thought it was a great scheme. He thought landing himself there was a great idea— he thought he was in for five more months of just chilling out and eating good food. He didn’t know that he was going into a microcosm of the oppressive qualities of society.

Melanie: Alright, this might be dumb, but can I ask a question? I’m fascinated by the turn this has taken.

Of course! What’s your question?

Melanie: Lance, do you feel like he sees the writing on the wall? Or is he oblivious at the end? Because everything else aside, there is a definite goodness in McMurphy, I think.

Lance: In as much as there is in any of us, sure.

Melanie: When does he— does he ever catch on?

Lance: I think he does. I mean, he makes that decision— that choice to sit down. During the moment after the Billy Bibbit incident— when they all tell him he can go, that they don’t blame him? His decision to sit down— for me— is like “I’m not going to run. I’m going to face the music.” I think he knows at that point that lobotomy is on the table. For me, I don’t think I’m positive that lobotomy is on the table, but I know that I’m about to face the music. I also don’t think I’m about to strangle you when that happens either. At that point, McMurphy has just thrown a party. Ratched said to the Billy Bibbit character— “I’m going to tell your mother” and then she put him into a room where there were sharp objects. That is insane! You torment a suicidal person, send them off to be on their own, in a room full of sharp objects— what the hell? That’s why McMurphy goes off the rails with his “Fuck you. I’m going to stay. I’ll see this through. You’ll never hear the end of me!” And then she pushes him far enough. And then the attack. And then the lobotomy. So I don’t know that he ever really sees it coming? Not in the when he chooses to sit down, it’s not “Oh! Lobotomy for me!” I think he’s like “Okay— this is going to be some shit, and I’m going to be here longer, and it’s going to be awful, but I’ll get a bitch.” It’s sad. It sucks. It’s hard.

What is the thing you are hoping that audiences are going to take away from seeing this production, especially knowing that the show deals with mental health, knowing that we’re all just coming out of a pandemic where mental health was so heavily brought to the forefront of our attentions?

Melanie: I’ll go first because my answer will be simple. It is very simplistic. But I want people not to judge. We don’t have to be so very quick to judge others by their first impression— you know, don’t judge a book by its cover. Everybody truly is battling— all at different degrees— but we’re all battling. Whether it’s to just be happy or just— be. We, as humans, are very, very quick to make our assumptions and we’re informed by our own assumptions from the get-go and they don’t change. Hopefully this will give a new look at what lies beneath all of us.

Lance: A couple of things. First of all, we’re rehearsing and performing on the unseated land of Susquehanna people, so I think that the role of Chief and the fact that we discuss in the play how indigenous Americans lost their land and their rights and were diminished culturally is a critical take-away. Chief talks about his father getting abused, having his hair cut, having to take his white wife’s last name because she won’t go around with an indigenous name— that’s massively important. It’s a huge part of the book and the play and something the movie totally missed the boat on.

Mental health and the awareness of it— my cousin died by suicide two weeks ago. It is hard to remember that everybody has stuff going on and that you need to be aware of that. With what they develop in this show— at the end— its community and friendship. And that’s why it’s hard for McMurphy to leave. And that’s something that we all need coming out of this. You need to have people— even when you are a screw-up, or you think the world’s about to blow up, or you’re about to build the bomb to blow-up the world, or you see invisible people. You need people. You see these moments of tenderness in that because “you’re nuts and so am I.” That’s another huge take-away.

The third thing— institutions in society and stuff are suspect and we should probably question them. That’s an important thing. What’s fucked up is that for a mental health facility— they’re top of the line! They were actually medicating patients. And Martin Freeman, who made the lobotomy popular— the trans-orbital lobotomy— they eventually got rid of that with medication. We’re at this turning point where it’s starting to get better— but it’s not! It’s awful. And is it really that much better today? One of the lessons of the show should be— question every type of system. Systems of control are inherently problematic.

Melanie: Isn’t it scary, but the folks who think for themselves— at least somewhat? There are just so many more people who don’t think— who follow— because it’s easier. Because it doesn’t’ require any effort. It’s so much easier to be told what to do.

What is the thing that you learned about yourself, about you as a performer, you as a person, that was your biggest personal take-away from this experience?

Melanie: Oh my God, these are hard questions. I’ve always loved theatre. I love the smell of it. I love just everything about it. I’ve always loved it— just dreamed of it. As a child, I wasn’t allowed to do it, it was always said to me that it’s not God’s work, blah, blah, blah. I grew up in a fundamentalist church and school. My childhood was just crazy. So finally as an adult, I got to do theatre. And I’ve always appreciated it but having been away from theatre for two years— and then watching these guys rehearse in the best place in the world— that to me is the most precious thing about this show, aside from the show itself. It’s just being back with my family. Making new friends, seeing old ones, I’m finding that I am appreciating even the silliest little moments much more than I ever did and I am just so thankful that I am a part of it.

Lance: It has been a valuable role and experience for an internal voyage. I think its fruitful and I couldn’t be happier to be with the wonderful people that we get to spend our rehearsals with. I think it’s going to be an excellent show. For me, that feels like a wonderful comfort, especially as I’m taking my next journeys in life. To have something that is potent and emotional and challenging and ultimately extremely rewarding with people you love and that you’re happy to see; there’s not a person that I’m sad to see walk through the door. I think that for me that is incredible beyond words. To be able to have that as I am moving to my next journey; that this was the jump-off point and that I get to do something meaningful.

Why do you want people to come and see this show?

Melanie: We’ve all worked very hard. Everybody is really just giving 100%. There are no slackers. There is nobody who comes in here and half-asses it.

Lance: Except me— when I roll in and we’re doing ‘the Lance Bankerd’ version of the show today…

Lee: Lance is definitely whole-assing it.

Lance: Oh. Oh you meant the butt. I meant that I was just going to be a fucking mess today.

Lee: You get a full shot of the Lance Bankerd bare ass.

Oh goodness. I’m trying to think if that’s the first time I’ll have seen your ass or not.

Lee: It’s definitely not the first time I’ve seen it!

Alright, so other than Lance’s ass, why do we want people to see this? I mean Lance’s ass is probably a selling point for some people. But why else do you want people to see the show?

Melanie: Because we all like each other and respect each other so much. That has a certain energy that makes for a terrific show. I think it’s just a great show. It’s really good.

Lance: Besides me getting naked? Because it’s one of those pieces of American culture that exists in our cultural sub and straight-up conscious. It informs a lot of things. It’s worth seeing it if you like the movie. If you hate the movie you should come and see it. If you’ve never seen the movie, you should come and see it. I feel like sometimes we just accept that things are important because we’re told that they’re important? But this one is important because it is still worth having these conversations today. Because it is handled well by Lee, and handled sensitively by the cast, it is not just some gimmicky bunch of people doing caricatures of mental illness for the sake of having a few laughs as actors. It is not that at all. It’s done with love and that makes it a really special production.

Melanie: Agreed.

Lance: Oh and I almost forgot! I’ve got to mention it— shout out to Tidewater Tattoo here in Elkton, right next to the theatre. They’re one of the sponsors of the show. And they actually worked on me— they gave me a tattoo— it’s not exactly one of McMurphy’s tattoos but it is a tattoo that commemorates me playing McMurphy. So— if you want to see their incredible work— you need to get tickets to come see the show!

You have to sum up the Cuckoo’s Nest experience in one word.

Melanie: Oh my. Lance? You go first.

Lance: Gutsball!

Melanie: So many words…I don’t want to say anything boring. Give me a word, Lance, come on. Help me out.

Lance: Medication.

Melanie: Medication should be my word?

Lance: And now you’ve ruined it. You were supposed to say it like you do in the show. I don’t know— sum up the experience for you!

Melanie: Oh! Thrilled!

One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest plays through March 12, 2022 at Showcase On Main— 112 W. Main Street in Elkton, MD. Tickets are available at the door or in advance online.