The grass is green and dense! On the right side of the fence! And it’s a fine life! A fine life— to be doing Oliver! at Tidewater Players this spring. You’re always going to get the raw and nitty gritty of a dark show when it comes to one directed by Bambi Johnson and that’s what we’re here for! Sitting down with Ryan Geiger and Emily Jewett, playing Bill Sikes and Nancy, respectively, we talk shop, nitty-gritty-darkness and all about tackling these two roles in Dickens darkest tale-turned-stage-musical, Oliver!
Thank you both so much for wrapping up rehearsal today and instead of running off to wherever, taking me with you, to chat all about getting to be a part of Bambi’s Oliver! As I mentioned to the readers in the intro, Ryan, you’re playing Bill Sikes, and Emily, you’re playing Nancy, whom I’m pretty sure does not have a last name. Is this your first time working on Oliver!?
Emily Jewett: No. In high school I was Widow Corney.
Well, Widow Corney to Nancy sounds like an upgrade! Ryan, your first time?
Ryan Geiger: Closest I’ve gotten to Oliver! before is seeing it. It’s funny, I was never a huge fan of the show but then I got in the show and I realized that it’s grown on me quite a bit.
What made you guys decide you wanted to come out and audition for Oliver! The show, the theatre, the director? What was it?
Ryan: My wife (Lisa Rigsby Geiger) convinced me to do it.
Yes, Lisa Rigsby Geiger isn’t totally sitting here right next to him (also in Oliver! as an ensemble & Rose Seller for the quartet number, “Who Will Buy?”) pointing and gesturing about how she was the one that got him to go out for the show!
Ryan: It’s just one of those things where I’ve had bad experiences with Oliver! and I thought, “It’s the show.” Then I realized, now it was the performance that I saw. Now that I’ve gotten a chance to see the show, I understand the show for what it is, which is not a kid’s show. A lot of people think it is. It’s dark. It is by far Dickens’ darkest story. It involves murder and a great many other dark things.
What about you, Emily? Why were you so interested in throwing your hat in the ring for Oliver!?
Emily: Because Bambi (director Bambi Johnson) was directing. I was recently in her production of Cabaret at Phoenix Festival Theatre. I’ve worked with her a couple of times now, that was my most recent Bambi show. Having done Oliver! in the past, I figured, why not? And you can’t beat an alto-lead that has a whole bunch of songs!
Ryan: Bambi being in charge of it was a big draw for me too.
You’ve never actually worked with Bambi before, have you?
Ryan: No. I’ve seen a couple of her shows, loved all of them, and was intrigued by the chance to work with her. And now I have it.
Aha! So what has it been like getting to work with Bambi for the first time?
Ryan: So far it’s been great. She gives you a lot of direction in terms of what you can do and what you can’t do. It’s really nice because she also allows you to play a little bit and come up with things on your own, which is good. But at a certain point she puts her foot down and says “this is how it has to be.” It’s good.
Emily, you said you’ve worked with her multiple times. What has this experience been like so far?
Emily: Yes, I have. First in 2008 for Once Upon a Mattress. I always love working with Bambi because she’s one of the directors who is really interested in and really good at getting down to the nitty-gritty of stuff, especially with the two of us, and with how dark we have to go. She fully pushes us and encourages us to get there.
Ryan: She embraces the darkness in this show, which is great. A lot of people tend to skip it or tend to change it, so that it’s less violent or so that it’s less dark. But in this case, Bambi is really saying, “this is what the relationship should be. It’s supposed to be dark. It’s supposed to be scary.” And that’s the whole point of these characters in this show; it lets you talk about that kind of a relationship and how it’s just completely wrong.
Now is this your first time working together with each other?
Emily: Together? Yes.
That always amazes me when I come across two people who are well-known in the theatre circuit around these parts, whose paths cross, but never together on stage.
Ryan: This is actually only my second show up in the Havre de Grace area. It was Margaritaville and now this, but before those two with Tidewater Players, I was mostly south of Baltimore. I was Baltimore and south… because Havre de Grace was always too far away, but now living in Dundalk, it’s much closer. It’s more within reach.
You were talking about the nitty-gritty relationship that you two get to have playing Bill and Nancy. How is that different from other roles that you two have played in other productions?
Emily: It’s definitely been interesting. Like I said, the last show I did with Bambi was Cabaret, another really deep, dark show. And having somebody like Bambi at the helm, really helps us go for it and not have any hesitations delving into that dark material. I’m having fun beating up this guy, so it’s not too bad.
Ryan: It’s an interesting discussion to have about Nancy and Bill and their specific relationship. We’ve talked about it quite a bit. I know we think— or at least the way we’ve been playing this is that Nancy essentially has Bill on this pedestal, which is really unwarranted, I think. He’s just evil. He just the definition of evil, that’s how Dickens wrote him, as the personification of evil. And I’ve been trying to play with Sikes as if he’s essentially that. Even though he’s with Nancy, I’m almost playing him as if he’s only with Nancy because he wants to be, because he can be. There’s no other reason. I’m convinced he never loves her. But there is a certain draw to it at the end— and spoilers for those who don’t know the show and I don’t want to spoil it too much— but there is a point at the end where he does realize that he’s actually not necessarily evil. And that change at the very end is essentially what causes his downfall. And that’s an interesting way to explore that character. So I’m trying to play him as if he’s essentially evil all along but there is this underlying tone that maybe he really does actually care for Nancy. While outwardly its almost as if he doesn’t really care— and there are certain points where I’m really trying to throw that in where it looks like he’s putting on a bravado of “I don’t like her”— deep down, on some level, he really does.
That’s a brilliant response. Now, what are you bringing to Bill Sikes, what is he bringing to you, where do you intersect, how are you similar, how are you different, and the same for you, Emily, but with Nancy.
Ryan: Bill is the darkest character I’ve probably ever had to play. With the exception of maybe Officer Lockstock in Urinetown but that’s a comedic villain. Verses Bill, who is pure evil. And he is essentially just mean. No matter what he does, the first thought in his head is always physical violence. No matter what somebody does, the first thing he resorts to is hitting somebody or battering somebody. It’s the darkest character I’ve ever had to play in that way and the stage combat is so much more interesting because of it. And I don’t want to spoil the ending for those that don’t know Oliver! but it’s something that I’ve never had to do on stage, which is also kind of cool.
Color me surprised— how is doing THAT on stage something you’ve never had to do!? How is that even possible?
Ryan: Because I have done comedy. I prefer comedy, mostly. And that doesn’t happen— at least not to my characters— in comedy. But every once in a while it’s fun to throw in drama. For me, it has always been comedy, comedy, comedy. And Bill is absolutely zero comedy. It’s an excellent challenge for me and it’s a lot of fun. There’s one comedic scene in the show with Bill and it’s really not me that’s doing the comedy but it’s Fagin doing the comedy with me. And I’m the straight man. And it’s a completely different take than I’ve ever done. I prefer to be the guy in the middle who is making all the jokes and making everybody laugh. That’s where I come from with Bill.
And you, Emily, for Nancy?
Emily: Ryan and I have talked about this briefly, the way Nancy and Bill essentially foil each other. He wants to be accepted and feared at the same time and just kind of isn’t. Whereas Nancy is the confident one. Nancy is automatically accepted and she doesn’t even really try. It’s definitely been interesting, especially with incorporating all of the fight-choreography stuff, which I’ve done from both an on-stage perspective and a choreographer-perspective, and it has been a lot. We’ve got a lot to do in this show. Just sitting with Nancy and trying to find the honesty that’s in her has been an experience. She’s confident in herself, she has stayed strong, been this strong female character— and yet… she falls for him because he needs her. And that’s the constant thing that I keep reverting back to with him. I’m here because he needs me. I have to be here because someone needs me.
Ryan: We were talking about this a while ago. There’s very few good characters in this show that are inherently good people. At first, Nancy is not a good person. She’s part of Fagin’s gang; she steals, she robs, she does all the stuff that all of Fagin’s gang does. But when she meets Oliver, the maternal side of her comes out, and no matter what I’m going to do, I’m going to save this kid. And that’s when she becomes good. That’s the interesting part to me because that’s where Bill starts to resent her. The second that she goes “good”, he sees her going good, and he feels like “you’re going against me” and that’s where the conflict comes from. Oliver, obviously, is a good character, he’s just a pure kid. And Mr. Brownlow. Those are probably the three only true-good characters in the show. And Nancy doesn’t even start off that way. She ‘goes good.’
That’s fascinating that you point out that she has to ‘turn good’ as opposed to starting off good. Now, what has been your biggest challenge taking on these less-than-glossy, really gritty roles up to this point in rehearsal?
Emily: Honestly I prefer those characters that are the “less-glossy” ones just because it’s almost harder to play a character that’s prim and perfect, and you know, the ingenue. It’s definitely been interesting going through all of this, not only to be working with accents, working with stage combat and choreography and all of that stuff, but also I have six songs where I’m singing partially if not wholly by myself. It’s a lot to do. I’m not there for most of Act I, and then all of the sudden, “I’m here and I’m staying.” Until the end.
Ryan: I have three minutes on stage in Act I. And in Act II I’m only here and there a little bit. I think I figured out I’m on stage for about 15-20 total minutes in the entire show, but I change the entire course of the show the second I arrive.
Did you just Princess-Track Bill Sikes?
Ryan: I don’t know what that is.
Emily: I think he just did. He princess-tracked Bill.
Ryan: What is a princess track?
A Princess Track is the track where you just sort of get to show up, do your song, and leave. Princess Track has very little on-stage time, but changes the whole course of the show, and is often there for one or some of the best moments of the show.
Ryan: Yeah, then pretty much. I’m fine with that. Those are my kind of shows.
Is that your biggest challenge, Ryan? Being a princess?
Ryan: I’m fine being a princess. Bring it on.
I love it. Now, what is the moment in Oliver! that really defines what the show means for you personally and that may be irrespective of your character.
Ryan: I’ll couch what I said before with what I said about the only three inherent good characters. I would argue that Fagin is partially good.
Fagin is a chaotic neutral.
Ryan: Yeah. I would say he’s absolutely a chaotic neutral.
Emily: That’s a good way to describe it.
Ryan: Yeah D&D— chaotic neutral— that works pretty well. Fagin is a bad guy but essentially he really does love his kids. He really does want them to be their best, and wants the best that they can have for them. To me, the part that really kicks it all off is when Oliver gets sold. Oliver being sold is the catalyst for the entire rest of the story. When Oliver realizes his worth, “I’m only worth three pounds”— I think that’s what he gets sold for, and to have him realize, “That’s all my value? That’s all I’m worth? Then I’m going to get out of here and make it on my own.” I would say that Annie is essentially the female version of Oliver! because Oliver! came first, but they’re very similar. Poor kid, he’s an orphan, grows up and ends up realizing he has a rich family. Same thing for Annie and I find that interesting.
What about you, Emily? The moment the defines the show for you?
Emily: Honestly, I would actually say Fagin’s first “Reviewing the Situation.” Because there is so much that has happened up until that point. They’ve brought Oliver back by that point, and all the chaos before that, and then having him take that step back to think, “Wait. Am I doing the right thing?” And he’s been there the longest, it’s his gig at this point. So for him to stop and think, “Wait. Is she right? Is this the right thing to be doing? Is Nancy right? Did I screw this up? Should I help her?” That is really that moment for me.
Absolutely. Now, Nancy, much more so than Bill, gets to do some of the dancing in the show. How has that been for you, Emily?
Ryan: Well I do have my big tap-solo.
Oh yes. Bill Sikes and The Big Bad Tap Solo at the entr’acte.
Emily: He is really trying to convince Bambi to throw that in there!
If anybody could, it would be you, Ryan.
Ryan: Nobody needs to see me do a tap number, I promise you.
I feel like if anyone was going to take a chance on it, it would be Bambi.
Emily: She would find a way. But for Nancy, there’s quite a few dance numbers. Like I said, I don’t show up until two thirds of the way through Act I, and then there’s the big, show-stopping, “It’s a Fine Life!” and working with the kids for those songs has been great. They are working their little butts off! And I cannot wait for you guys to see that number.
Ryan: They are very talented kids.
Emily: Yes they are. And then she comes busting out in Act II, right at the top with “Oom-pah-pah!” And we are definitely not shying away from the drunkenness and the dancing on tables and all of that stuff.
Ryan: This is not kiddie-fied. This is the not the G or PG version of Oliver! this is PG-13!
What is your favorite song in Oliver! and it may or may not be a song that your character sings.
Emily: Honestly, from the moment we were cast in the show, “Be Back Soon” has been stuck in my head all the time. But “Reviewing the Situation” is probably one of my favorite songs in the show just because Fagin rocks his own thing there.
Ryan: Mine has always been “Consider Yourself.” It’s by-far the most popular song in the show. Everybody adores it. You can walk down the street, play the first 30 seconds of it, and everybody will say, “I know where that’s from!” But I think the one that has grown on me the most is “Who Will Buy?” The thing that is the most interesting about it is that it’s the first time where Oliver realizes there is a life outside of crime. He finally gets taken in by Mr. Brownlow, and the next morning is him waking up in a rich part of town where there’s no crime. Just good people that are hard-working out there trying to make a living. The way that that song changes everything for him in that moment is something else. It’s very much this European story where you wake up in the morning and you just hear the people walking down the streets, about to sell stuff, and then the hustle-bustle of the city as the city starts to wake up, it’s just a really cool song. And I’m not just saying that because my wife is one of the featured soloists in it.
That’s is a really wild and refreshing perspective to take on it! Now if you could be anybody in Oliver! regardless of age or gender, talent or other constrictions, who would you be?
Emily: I would say Bill Sikes, honestly. As a lower-register-female as far as singing is concerned, I am very much a proponent of having that gender-swap be available. And just to be able to really scream at the end of “My Name” is awesome and appeals to me.
I feel that on a visceral level, Emily. Because as a ‘mamma sang tenor’ kinda gal myself, I constantly say “there has to be more than Always, Patsy Cline out there. What about you, Ryan?
Ryan: For me? Let’s see, I haven’t really thought about it, but I think my favorite character is always Dodger. He’s just fun. It goes back to my preferred part is the comedic, silly character, and that’s Dodger. That’s all he is. Silly good fun.
You know, I’ve interviewed the Oliver(s) and asked them a similar question and I think at least one of you will be quite pleased when I publish their interview…because they both said they wanted to play…a certain character…followed by wanting to play Dodger. So I think that’s a win-win all round. Now, what has been your big, personal takeaway from getting to be a part of Oliver! with Bambi at Tidewater Players in these specific roles, playing opposite one another, Ryan, with you having a wife in the show, Emily…you do not have a wife in the show, I assume?
Emily: I do not.
Lisa is still sitting here all excited because she got mentioned again. And we have to give some love to Amy Tucker, who is sitting on the other side of me and across from Lisa, sitting silently by but who was fist-pumping both times the “Who Will Buy?” was mentioned, which I believe means she’s a part of that quartet?
Amy Tucker: I’m the Milk Maid in that song, also Mrs. Sowerberry.
Fantastic. You can be Emily’s wife. Since your husband is doing another show. And he was kind enough to mention your show in his interview, he’s playing Charlie in Dundalk Community Theatre’s production of Kinky Boots. Wait— now where were we? Ah yes, big personal takeaways. Emily?
Emily: Being a part of Oliver! has been really awesome, honestly. This has really been the first time for me taking on a character that is considered a leading role. I’ve done a lot of ensemble stuff, a lot of featured stuff, a few supporting roles, but this is the first time I’ve ever really had a true leading role. Coming into this role with people that I’ve been friends with but have never been on stage with before or have never worked with before— people like Gary Dieter, who I have stage-managed for multiple times but whom I’ve never actually been on a stage with at the same time in a show. But then I’ve also got people like Lisa and Amy here, who I’ve been on stage with before, and having all of that combination has been a really great and super supportive experience. It’s been a lot of work but I’ve been able to just delve into Nancy and find that strength and that truth within her. It has been super awesome. And getting to do some fight choreography is always fun.
Ryan: It’s kind of a tough question. There are some things about it that have been really good. Minimal rehearsal time has been nice. When you don’t show up until basically Act II, there’s not a whole lot of time that you have to be at rehearsal. When you only sing one song and then you don’t also have to sing backup for everything else, it’s pretty nice to not have to worry about all that. Like Emily said, it’s a lot of fun. Working with people for the very first time that I’ve known for years— like I’ve known Amy for more than ten years now or something like that, I’ve known Emily here for five or six, I’ve known Leslie and Matt Perry for ever— but I’ve never done shows with them before. And then getting to do— what is it now, my third show with my wife?
Lisa: No.
Ryan: Oh right, it’s actually our fourth. We did Spamalot at Silhouette, we did Anything Goes at Silhouette, and then we did Margaritaville here and now we’re doing Oliver! here.
Lisa: Actually, it’s five. You forgot A Bronx Tale at Dundalk (Dundalk Community Theatre) which was before Margaritaville.
Ryan: Okay— five shows! It’s always fun to get to take the stage with your wife plus it cuts down on gas because you don’t have to both drive separately to the show. It’s also nice to have someone to remind me, “Hey, you have rehearsal tonight.”
That does sound nice. Why do we want people to come out and see Oliver! up here at Tidewater Players?
Ryan: It’s the show. This version of this show is different from any other version that I’ve seen because it leans into the fact that it’s not a children’s show. There’s nothing wrong with asking your kids to come and see it. There’s not violence— well, no, there’s some violence but it’s not massive nudity or intense gory violence. It’s a story that I think people need to see; it’s essentially telling a classic tale really well. The fact that a lot of people think that Oliver! is just this show where it’s a bunch of kids marching around the stage and singing— no. It’s not true.
I think, unfortunately, often times, especially at the community level, that’s what it becomes.
Ryan: Exactly. And Bambi has worked so hard to make sure that this isn’t that. My first thought, when I heard “Be Back Soon” was ‘all it’s going to be is a bunch of kids marching around on stage.’ But it so very not. These kids are actually doing things, they’re exploring things, it’s a lot different than a lot of people think. It’s not what most people think of when they think of Oliver! and I think people should see that it is different. I mean it’s not Annie, even though their stories are similar, Annie is just an excuse to put kids on stage. Oliver! is an excuse to tell a classic story, in a beautiful way, with real beautiful music, and brilliant direction.
Emily: Oliver!, like Ryan said, is a classic. It often gets misconstrued as a cutesy children’s show, but one of the things that we’ve really been working on is the honesty of the story and getting down to the grit of it. And we’re going for the question of, “when you’re down and you’ve got not the best luck in the whole world, what decisions do you make?” Like Ryan said, Nancy at the beginning was a part of Fagin’s gang. She was stealing things and all of that stuff. But even at the beginning of the show, I honestly find her to be a good person. She steals but she’s a good person. She cares for people. She cares for people a little bit too strongly, maybe more than she should. But just getting down to the grit and the honesty of those relationships and answering that question of what makes a good person is really why people should come out for this.
Ryan: The thing is, they’re not caricatures of characters. They show what life is like. There is gray. It’s not a show where there’s just black and white. There’s a lot of gray. Everyone in the show, with the exception of Oliver and Mr. Brownlow, are essentially gray. It’s an interesting chance to be able to see that in this show.
If you had to sum up your experience, here with Bambi and Tidewater Players working on Oliver! in just one word, what one word would you use?
Emily: Making it difficult now, gosh! You know, I’m going to go with compelling.
Ryan: I’m going to go with simple.
Oliver! plays May 10th 2024 through May 19th 2024 with Tidewater Players in residence at the Cultural Center at The Havre de Grace Opera House— 121 N. Union Street in historic downtown Havre de Grace, MD. For tickets call the box office at 667-225-8433 or purchase them online.
