The history of the world my sweet— is who gets eaten and who gets to eat!! Feast…your eyes…on this round-robin cast-conversational with Rogue Swan. Sitting down with quite a few of the Rogue Swan core troupe members, we’re discussing bloody bloody Stephen Sondheim, though much more specifically Sweeney Todd and their upcoming production, which just so happens to be the kickoff for spooky season and a part of their tenth anniversary season! It’s pretty wild all things considered. So grab a fork and a knife and let’s dive in!
Thank you all— and I see we’ll be adding some as we go here— for gathering? Congregating? Sitting? Coming together to sit and chat with me an hour before one of your rehearsals so we can talk about this wild and wondrous entity that is Rogue Swan and it’s— to my knowledge— first full-length licensed stage musical production. I’m thrilled! Why don’t we start off with some introductions?
Marion Jackson: My name is Marion Jackson and I’m playing Johanna.
Amy Tucker: My name is Amy Tucker and I’m playing The Beggar Woman.
Lilli Burril-Gordon: My name is Lilli Burril-Gordon and I am the director and stage manager.
Katie Gordon: I’m Katie Gordon and I am Lovette.
James Watkins: I am James Watkins and I’ll be your Sweeney Todd.
Four lovely ladies and one dude. Fantastic. Now what is the draw to want to come out and want to work with Rogue Swan for a full-on staged musical production, specifically for Sweeney Todd?
Marion: So I’ve been with Rogue Swan for seven years now. The way that we work typically is that we are a troupe rather than a community theatre. I’m one of the core members of the troupe. I love everything that we do, frankly, and Sweeney has been a passion project and a bucket-list role, I think for everybody for forever. How could you pass that up? The opportunity to cross one off the bucket-list!
That’s awesome. Amy?
Amy: So this is my third year with Rogue as a core member? I started out in the band and I float between band and on-stage and do a little bit of everything. It was kind of hard for this show to decide did I want to be on-stage or did I want to be in the incredible pit that we have. But Beggar Woman, like Marion said, is a dream role for me. I love Sweeney Todd very much and I love working with Rogue. Rogue is the most professional theatre organization I’ve ever worked with in my entire life. So any time they ask, I say yes, because I know that no matter what happens, it will be done in a professional and a kind way. And I love that.
Lilli: I have been around for all of Rogue. I’ve been in the background, backstage, usually helping handle the Vaudevilles. But as a unit, our troupe has always had this end-goal of doing Sweeney. We have been pushing for it, waiting for the right moment to do it, and the stars aligned that this was to be our year.
Katie: I started Rogue years ago because I wanted to create a theatre company where we could have a multi-aged, seasoned performers working with younger performers so that they could see how they should and could be treated. So they could learned from more seasoned performers and so that we could learn from them as well. We just wanted to have a place for all the misfits…we wanted to be the island of misfit toys in theatre. And now here we are. Because all of us come from huge, diverse backgrounds, yet we all fit together like a little puzzle. We have wanted to do Sweeney Todd since before Rogue was a twinkle in my eye. We have talked about it. James and I have performed together since—
James: 1997—
Katie: Since before my children were born. And we have talked about this for that long.
That’s incredible. A stage production 27 years in the making. How about you, James?
James: I’ve been here since day one. I was one of the first people that Katie tapped to actually try to figure out how to get this ship off the ground so to speak, as a business and as a company. I have been thankful for every single moment that I’ve been a part of it. This has been, hands down, the finest group of people I have ever had the privilege of working with and Sweeney Todd was not only a dream role, but it was a destination production for each and every member of this cast. And we have arrived. It’s going to be an amazing show.
I love hearing that, it sounds phenomenal and I am looking forward to finally getting to see a Rogue Swan show! Now tell me a little bit about how this particular production up to this point in the rehearsal process is maybe a little different compared to some of the other shows you’ve done with Rogue.
Marion: Gosh, that’s a great question. Vaudeville is primarily what we do and it is that quintessential variety show that really isn’t done anymore. And where we have so much freedom to play and create the characters ourselves and dig-in and explore however we feel, the challenge of— I don’t want to say ‘being boxed into a role’— but the challenge of a pre-determined role…it’s a really interesting challenge. I’m taking Moxie, my Vaudeville character, and working to fit her into Johanna and that’s a really interesting challenge because it is so unlike who Moxie is in Rogue. I love a challenge. I love that opportunity. It’s a really excellent challenge and I love that.
Amy: I think what I love that’s different about this is the level of collaboration that we’ve had as a cast. We are all constantly helping each other to make things better. And it’s in any variety of ways, it’s any combination of people we’re always looking to each other to support each other and to make this the best it can be and it’s lovely.
Lilli: I would say other than the scope of myself having to coordinate— and I’ve always coordinated our group and I have gotten to know our group schedules— but on the other side, there is a 22-piece orchestra that I am also scheduling their rehearsals and their schedules. So that, from a technical perspective has been a big challenge, finding that balance. From a personal perspective, with the Vaudevilles like Marion says, it’s very much our people that I’ve gotten to know as we write them and add in these characters, but then we let our people take them and run with them. I am very used to saying “here are the bones, take it and run with it and see where you go.” For this, I’ve had to add in a little bit more structure while still trusting my people that they are going to take it and put the meat on it. And they really have done that in an amazing way.
That’s perfect imagery. Both for Halloween and Sweeney. Katie?
Katie: I think one of the more challenging things doing this show for me personally has been the fact that when we are getting ready for a Vaudeville, every Sunday of every week, all of the core cast meet in the garage where the band practices and they practice with us on the vocals from day one. That’s why we have the band on the stage, they are truly part of the core company. When we’re goofing off on stage, they’re totally involved in it versus just being a pit. And it has been, I think, very hard to not be with them. I get texts from our core people who are in the orchestra— saying they miss us and asking when they’re going to see us— because we are used to being this tight-knit group. That has been a challenge.
I think something that has been a pleasure is that when we started dividing this up and looking at it, saying that we need more people to help us, that I knew I could say to Rob (Rob Tucker of Rogue Swan and everywhere else) “we need your help with the men’s vocals, can you meet with them?” And he just said absolutely. Never had to think about it. I knew that me and Amy and Marion would be each other’s music directors. We knew that we had each other’s back and I think that the beauty of having a core troupe is that we know how each other functions, we know how each other learns, and we know each other’s voices probably too well. We know each other’s weaknesses and we know each other’s strengths and we know how to make each other strong.
That’s fantastic. What are your thoughts, James?
James: This has been the single most challenging endeavor I think I’ve actually been a part of. It being Sondheim, it comes with all of the trappings that one might expect. But I think the challenge of it, echoing Marion’s sentiments here, really has pulled our core together into a battle-ready force. The amount that I have seen brought to the table, including from some of our junior members who have just come on board for this production, has blown me away. The level of intensity, professionalism, and just straight heart that everybody is bringing to the table— I can’t wait to be in the same room as the orchestra. I had the luxury of hearing a couple of snippets from Lilli’s first sit-in— and of course it’s just this little, tiny iPhone recording, but you can hear the nuts and the bolts coming together to make the machine. Then the next morning, I’m reading the sentiments of one of our newest core members, who was at that rehearsal, and he said he teared-up. That was the first time that they had ever been in the same room together and he teared-up because of the quality that everybody brought. Everybody’s doing the work and this is work with a big W. I could not be more pleased, impressed, or feel more safe than to be in the company with the people that are in this production.
This sounds like it’s going to be an extraordinary experience. And also, a new member has entered the chat. Who are you? Hi.
Jesse Hutchinson: Hello. My name’s Jesse Hutchinson and I’m playing Anthony.
Fantastic. Welcome. How long have you been with Rogue? Are you a core member what’s your story here?
Katie: Actually, he is the reason that I started Rogue. He’s my son.
Jesse: Ten years.
Alrighty then. Everybody in here related to Katie?
James: Yes. In some way, shape, or form. Sort of.
Fantastic! So Jesse, what are you finding challenging or different about Sweeney in comparison to other Rogue shows that you’ve done?
Jesse: For one, definitely showing up on time seems to be a bit of a struggle. I think that there’s a certain level of comfort in this for me but there are challenges. With a lot of our Rogue stuff there’s a lot of improv. And there’s a lot of doing our character, going out on the fly, and I love that. There’s a lot challenges that go along with that. I think I went into that pretty naturally. I also love having a script. I love sitting down and breaking down the character. I love breaking down someone that’s not myself and figuring out, “what’s the science of this guy?” There’s a lot of comfort in that component and I like that a lot but it’s also a challenge.
Excellent. Back to Marion. Is there a moment that you’ve discovered thus far in the rehearsal process that really defines what this show experience has been for you?
Marion: It’s really hard to pick that from my perspective, I think? Because Johanna is so apart from the action. My interactions with the cast have been so different from everybody. I think myself, and maybe Brian (playing Judge Turpin, Brian Ruff) are so separated from everything that there isn’t as much meshing as everybody else gets to do. To sum up the experience, I don’t know that I can? Come back to me?
No that’s a perfectly valid answer, Marion. You’re actually describing the inexpressibility trope…it’s this notion that no matter what resources of vocabulary or amount of time you had to find the words, you’d never have the exact words to fully express or describe what you’re feeling from the experience and that’s a beautiful thing so don’t sweat it. A dear friend told me that once upon a time, when I was struggling to come up with words for a review— he said, “you could have a thousand years, a bucket full of ghost-reaper-peppers, and a 200ft-bungee-cord-jump, you could still not describe the visceral feeling that that play moved you to.” And he wasn’t wrong. So you saying you can’t sum up the experience is completely valid and I can 100% relate. Amy, what about you?
Amy: I’m going to try and do this in a spoiler-free way, so in case somebody is reading this interview and isn’t familiar with Sweeney Todd or the ending, no one has anything ruined. Without context, there are scenes from the end of the show where I have to put implicit trust in James to take care of me. And I do. That I think sums it up really well. This cast trusts each other. And we trust that when somebody falls, somebody else is going to pick up the slack. And if you do fall, nobody’s going to shame you, nobody’s going to make you feel bad about it. They’re going to help you figure out what you need in order to fix it. And I think that really sums it up really well.
That is a wonderful sentiment to hear and I think you did that very, very spoiler-free! Well done. Lilli, how about for you, because you’re not performing per say, so what you’re finding in the rehearsal process that’s giving you meaning might be very different.
Lilli: I think you’re right, I think it is a very different experience from my side verses the performers’ side. I think two of the biggest, pivotal moments for me were, of course, hearing the orchestra for the first time. I’ve heard our band. I’ve been surrounded by band our entire life.
Lilli, how many people are typically in the Rogue Swan Band?
Lilli: 12 to 13. So this is doubling that. Hearing that for the first time was a really amazing experience that I had not felt before. Sitting in the middle of all of that was amazing. From the cast perspective, a couple of weeks ago we ran Act I for the first time. On my way there, I was worried, thinking that I hadn’t actually blocked anything. I didn’t think I’d done anything these past six weeks, and thank goodness, Katie’s choreographed, because I was convinced I hadn’t done anything. I had this entire moment of second-guessing myself. But everyone came so prepared, and so ready to go— they showed me not only that I did block things, but I blocked them in a way that they had absorbed, and they practiced them. Having that moment of seeing ‘this is what I laid out and it actually happened’ and everyone did it so much more beautifully than anything I could have thought or hoped for from a first run-through, it was amazing. That really summed up this moment, feeling that trust. As Amy said, it’s trust in a different way. For her, she has to trust that people are going to physically take care of her on the stage. For me, it’s trusting that I gave them this random thing to do, and they’re going to do it with their character and it’s going to make sense. I did not trust in myself that I actually did that until I saw it happen.
That’s amazing. Katie?
Katie: I will say that the moment I realized what we had gotten into was the moment that we did “Epiphany.” And I just started cried. In “Epiphany” he (James) who I have known my entire life, grabs me, and throws me into the chair to kill me. Or Lovette thinks he’s going to kill her. We had talked through it, we knew we were going to do it, I was prepared for it, but the moment that this person— who I knew before I had children— grabbed me, I thought “shit has hit the fan!” We are walking on the tightrope together. We had to stop because I just leaned down and started crying. We have worked so hard for this moment and that was the moment. It felt real! All the fundraisers, all the nights worrying if someone was going to buy tickets, all the days we spent worrying “oh my God, people don’t know what a Vaudeville is, this is really cool, why won’t people come see a Vaudeville?” All those moments, and then that moment when I just felt this rush of emotion— I realized all this core company are standing on a tightrope. And I’m good with it.
Marion: It was an epiphany!
Yes, she took the words right out of my mouth. And it’s fascinating to hear you say that, Katie. Because you do have companies out there who exist for quite a long time who don’t ever achieve that moment of, for lack of a better word, totality, or achieving their purpose of being. That’s a very impressive thing to hear. James?
James: Our minds went to exactly the same place, Katie. In that moment, which was in the third floor of Katie’s house, which she completely redid so that we had an extra rehearsal space, because we don’t actually have a dedicated singular space to work, and that is a very private scene. But in that moment, as we’re going through it, I’m watching one of my closest friends buckle in front of me because it’s a singular moment in the fact that we’ve been in shows together for the better part of 30 years and I’ve been cast in a lot of villainous roles, and a lot of people who are in this company or in various iterations of what preceded this company, have been my victims. But this was the first time that Katie had ever been in that position. Neither one of us walking into that room that day even thinking about that. As soon as she buckled, I stopped, she starts losing it, I start losing it. Lilli called a stop, we went to our corners, came back, worked through it, wiped our eyes, and got on with the business of the scene and we made it amazing.
And it will resonate. The intensity that this show brings in particular, and that it’s all coming out of each and every member of the cast, and each and every member of that orchestra, is astonishing. It’s not the kind of thing that you just walk into any theatre up and down the east coast, or maybe even nation-wide, and see the level that I think we’re going to bring to this. If we’re feeling it that much and the audience isn’t we’re either over-doing it or people have become jaded to the point where my heart will break for all of them.
These are some really powerful expressions. Jesse?
Jesse: Um.
Katie: Jesse, just ask her to repeat the question!
Jesse: Yeah, I got lost in all those awesome answers.
That’s okay— hang on, what was the question? Oh right, what is the moment that you have found in rehearsal up to this point that is defining what the show means for you? And honestly, I can repeat anything you guys need me to, I know we’re going through this at warp-speed and I can see by the looks on all of your faces that you are so engrossed in each other’s answers, listening and absorbing, and taking it all in, you can tell that you all are a tightly-bonded group who is really invested in each other and this project.
Jesse: Thanks so much. Cool. This show has a lot of types of meaning for me. It’s something me and Mom have talked about since I was a child. I auditioned for a production of this when I was 11. You had to be 13 to audition so I lied. Granted, I was not old enough to play Anthony in that production, but there’s that. I just turned 26 so the last 15-16 years we’ve been talking about doing this show and here we are. It’s also a big thing of growth for me. I did this role in a high school version when I was 13 or 14. I was a freshman. It was the first time anyone had ever heard me sing. I had done a couple of junior shows, so they knew I had a bit of a stage presence, but it was the first time anyone had actually ever heard me sing. And they thought, “hey! That guy can actually do this!” And here we are several years late. It’s kind of a big thing of growth, I mean growing as a performer. Just going through these scenes, double-my-life later, it’s really profound feeling like “Wow, this is where it started back at age 13-14 and I’ve grown a lot.”
That’s an extraordinary experience to have, Jesse, and really wonderful to hear. Now, I hate to use the word favorite, but is there a musical number that either you’re in or maybe not in that really makes your heart sing? Or your pies bleed? Or whatever analogy you want to use there.
Marion: Easy. “The Johanna Quartet.” I don’t know what it is about it? But it is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I think I’ve ever heard. There’s just something kind of magical about the way the voices weave together and the orchestra behind it— it is just captivating to me.
Amy: I love “Johanna” the song “Johanna” it’s always been my favorite. It’s one of my favorite musical theatre songs in general. It’s interplay between the vocals and the orchestra, the way the orchestra swells underneath it as it goes through, it makes my heart happy every time.
Lilli: It’s hard to pick favorites! I will say that I think the song that had the biggest impact on me the first time I saw it done completely was actually the opening ballad. When our ensemble comes out— oh to they mean that! It really took my breath away. Everything sounds so beautiful but to open this show in that way with that swell and that the power and those voices, that was pretty spectacular.
Katie: I have to say, I agree with Marion. It is the “Johanna Quartet.” Not only is it beautiful but the first time I recognized my kid could sing was when I heard him sing that song. When he was 14. And I had that “Oh my God, my child can sing! Thank you, Lord!” moment. And I just knew one day he was going to get to do that as an adult.
James: Believe it or not, my favorite song in this show is actually “A Little Priest.”
Oh thank goodness, I was hoping someone would say that— that’s my favorite show. I’m a pun-queen and I LOVE that number.
James: I’ve actually had the privilege of performing this number with Katie in a vignette before. But the song is so story-spun, and it is one of the longest songs in musical theatre and it definitely has that reputation. But the back-and-forth, the waltz of those lyrics, movement, and personality kind of encapsulates what the whole first act of the show brings to the table. Every range of emotion and the result thereof is right there in front of you. And I get to do it with one of my best friends.
Jesse: I definitely have always kind of considered “The Johanna Quartet” to be the best song of the show. I’ve always said that. It has to be the best piece in the show. But a very close second or honorable mention for me has always been “God, That’s Good!” I love that number. I think it’s very crunchy and musical. I’m very much into music, of course musical theatre, but also music as a whole, and that number has a lot to it.
If you could be anyone in the show, regardless of age, gender, vocal capability, or other casting constraints, but not Johanna, Marion…who would you be?
Marion: Honestly I think I’d want to be The Beadle. I think it’s a very deceiving role, being a minor character that there’s not much meat to it. But I think it’s probably one of the meatiest roles in the show. The Beadle has to play this underling to the Judge but he is the king of his own castle. The role that he plays in society is of that ‘beat cop’ and the way that he interacts with the rest of these citizens of London, and then specifically with these characters is incredibly dynamic. He has to have three different faces at all times. He has to keep the Judge happy, keep everybody under his thumb, and then he has this daughter at home who he’s trying to show he’s a loving father to. It is a lot harder than I think it looks on the surface. I think it would be a really, really cool challenge.
I love hearing the complexity of an otherwise easily ‘unnoticeable’ minor character. Amy? Who are you writing your ticket for? Anyone but Beggar Woman.
Amy: I think Johanna is the obvious answer for me because I’m a soprano and I love singing all of Johanna’s music. It’s fun. But— I’ve done this show before as an ensemble member and this is a show where I would never turn down a shot to be in the ensemble. It’s one of the most fun ensembles to be in. The music is super frickin’ hard and you get to sing things like “God, That’s Good!” “Pirelli’s Elixir” and you really have to be on top of your shit. And I love that.
Excellent. Lilli, write yourself a ticket, make yourself a stage performer, and put yourself into this show as…?
Lilli: Sweeney. So I can sing “Epiphany.” I sing it in the car all the time. It’s ridiculous. I sing that and the last 20 minutes of the show. It’s one of my favorite last 20 minutes of any show at all. What Sweeney goes through in those final 20 minutes— amazing. So if I could do all of those things that’s what I would do.
Katie? Not Lovette, but…?
Katie: I have a soft-spot for Beggar Woman. How many times have I randomly burst out into “Alms” for no reason but to aggravate people. I will say, last week as we were doing the last 20 minutes again and again…honestly? The ensemble is a kick-ass role. As the lunatics? They’re hot! It’s so hard and so challenging and you do not have Sweeney Todd without the ensemble. I said it the very first day, I said it to the entire cast. “You know what? A lot of people can do the leads. But the ensemble makes the show.” And they are phenomenal. If I wasn’t Lovette? Maybe Beggar Woman but I’d want to run around being a lunatic. The music is just phenomenal.
I have heard it said over the 15 years I’ve been in this industry, have experienced it, and wholeheartedly agree that you can overcome a bad lead? You can’t overcome a bad ensemble. A good ensemble can save your show if you have a shitty lead. You cannot recover from a crappy ensemble. Now James, write your ticket but not Sweeney. Go!
James: Oh man I’m split on this one. It’s neck and neck. I think it would actually be Beggar Woman and Lovette.
Really. You could not have picked more opposing roles there…
James: That’s exactly why. They are opposite sides of the same coin thematically. You have a part of his past and a part of his present but two different sides of the same coin! I can’t say more because— spoilers but if you know. Both of these women are equally mad in their own right. But one who is entirely calculating in their choices. And the other who is basically the fulcrum of the entire show. The other is the unrestrained fury of mental illness. Both of those extremes would be extraordinarily challenging and engaging to want to play as a performer.
Jesse? Write your ticket but you can’t be Anthony.
Jesse: I’d be Sweeney. I will never be Sweeney. I’ve sang some of the stuff with him. I am an undersized, bright tenor. I cannot hit the notes. I love to act and I would love the opportunity to act it. But I can’t sing it. Realistically, I definitely see myself going for Pirelli in five or ten years.
Undersized bright tenor. That might be the quote of the interview right there. Ooh boy! Now, if you had to pick a profession to throw into a flavor of meat-pie…
Marion: Hmm.
Director maybe?
Marion: Oh no. I think with Director the meat would be too tough! I do wonder though if…hmm. Maybe Barista? That might taste pretty good if it was saturated well enough. A nice savory-sweet combination and of course that kick of caffeine.
Oh wow! That’s intriguing. Amy?
Amy: Competitive Food Eater. Nice variety of flavors, that’s their specialty and you’ll get that particular flavor. Except maybe not Hot-Dog-Eater.
Oh Good God. That’s not good. Hot-Dog-Pie. Nope. Also, please welcome to the arena-round-robin table, Breonna Lewis. Tell us how you’re involved with this show?
Breonna Lewis: I’ve been doing all of the vocals— all the ensemble vocals and helped with the lead vocals.
Are you a Rogue Core member?
Bre: I’m a Rogue Core. I’ve been here since 2018? So six years?
Awesome. So Bre, if you had to put a profession into a meat pie…
Bre: I would definitely say Wine Connoisseur. Going a little off of what Amy said, you’ve got all the different flavors. You’ve got different tones of wine, you can go dark, you can go light. From a business perspective, I feel like it’s very marketable.
Absolutely. So we’ve established that this half of the table is clearly the hungry-thirsty side. Lilli?
Lilli: Chocolatier. The only one who matches my sweet tooth in Rogue is my cousin Jesse over there. So chocolate all the way.
Add Lilli to Team Hungry!Thirsty. Katie?
Katie: Hmm.
Lilli: Who’s annoyed you most recently?
Katie: Surgeons. Any surgeon. But not because I want to eat them. I just want to chop them up. Into pieces. And maybe mix it up with some coriander. But also please come to our show. You’ll enjoy yourself.
And we’ve crossed over the border to Vengeance pie. Lordy. James?
James: An independently wealthy cooperate executive, especially one that lived a privileged upbringing. They will be nice and tender.
Katie: And that’s why he’s our Todd.
James: I want those who have made their way into that title through power of purchase alone.
Oh boy. Jesse?
Jesse: I think I need to switch it up here. We need a nice, lean, healthy option. So I’m going with personal trainer.
Oh thank you! I will have Personal Trainer pie. That sounds fantastic. What are you hoping that people are going to take away from this experience? Especially if your more traditional fan base/Rogue supporters are used to Vaudevilles and cabarets? What are you hoping they’re going to get out of this Sweeney experience?
Marion: Bare minimum, I hope they come away entertained and having seen a really good story. Beyond that, I hope people really love and cherish the opportunity to see a symphonic orchestra in Harford County because that doesn’t happen very often. And to be able to have that opportunity and have that experience is so incredible and so beautiful and so enriching. I’m really excited for that.
I am also incredibly excited for that. Live orchestra— period— in Harford County seems to be a rarity. Amy?
Amy: As an instrumentalist myself, I’m very excited about people seeing a full orchestra with the show. I used to play in pits a lot when we first moved here. And I haven’t played in a pit in forever. I would do it for free, I don’t need to be paid, I miss having that experience. I also hope that people, when they come see this that they take something home with them emotionally. I think this is a very emotional, impactful show. I think the way that we’ve worked it and the way we’ve worked together I think it reads very well because we all know each other so well. Even the new people that have been brought in, they dove in head-first and we’ve got a unit. If you don’t go away emotionally impacted somehow, you’ve missed something.
Bre: On a basic level I just hope people are entertained and that they really enjoy it. To go deeper, I think one of the most magical things about Rogue is we invite you in with every single show, with every single experience we invite you into our story. Even though Sweeney Todd is an established classic and everybody knows it, this really is Rogue’s take on it. And we really want to invite you into our take on it. We’re going to make you step into that world, we’re going to transport you. That’s just one of the things that I love about performing with these people. We go on an adventure together. We do it together and we do it for each other. I hope people are able to get into that and enjoy the journey.
Extraordinary sentiment! Lilli?
Lilli: I think, particularly for the audiences that are just joining us, I hope this opens a door that was previously closed. I hope they go away saying “this group of people is really talented. This story was done really well and therefore we want to see more from them.” That’s my hope for new people. For people who are returning, for people who have come to see us in the Vaudevilles and the concerts, in the things that show a little bit more of our Rogue personality, I hope that they see how much we’ve infused of ourselves into this show. I hope they can see all the places where Marion did work-in her Moxie character into Johanna. And Johanna’s a little bit different in this production because Marion is doing it differently. We’ve made those choices where we can within the confines of a rights-bound show. We also sat down together and talked through characters at the beginning. I really want people who have seen us before to go, “Oh my gosh, this is a different side of them. And I enjoyed this side just as much as the other, and I still see Rogue in this show.” Those are the two things I want, both for the audiences who haven’t seen us before and for the audiences who have.
Excellent. Katie, if I can ask you to hold your thought for just a second, I want to tack-back to Marion here, after hearing more about this Moxie character. Marion you’d mentioned Moxie earlier, and she’s an actual pre-existing character, can you elaborate on that just a little bit?
Marion: Sure! It was the second full Vaudeville that we did. I came out of a box. It was Moxie-in-a-Boxie. And I’ve been Moxie ever since.
Katie: She just rolls on stage!
Marion: I just roll on in the box and pop out like a Jack-in-the-Box. And the box clearly stated “Moxie-in-a-Boxie.” The character that we’ve built is like a traditional harlequin. She is a trickster; she is always getting into things. She knows what everybody else doesn’t. Whereas Johanna is traditionally that caged bird who doesn’t know what’s going on. To us, that just doesn’t make sense. As the Judge’s daughter, she would have that level of influence, she would have that level of education. She would be more aware than the average kid would be at that time. So it makes no sense that she would just be a helpless, thoughtless girl. She would be aware. She’s clearly looking to get out of there. She wants to escape; she just needs help putting the pieces together. So we’re trying to make that obvious. That’s how we’re choosing to play Johanna and using some of Moxie to do that.
Lilli: We’re doing that with other characters as well. Like with Katie’s Lovette. I’ve seen many versions of Lovette but we really wanted to make sure that it was different. Katie’s role in Rogue is very much the string-puller. She is the one that puts all the pieces together in Rogue. So we wanted to make sure that Lovette was a little more infused with that. A little more agency. I feel that we did a good job infusing a little bit more agency overall into the female characters than I’ve seen previous renditions do. Whereas with James, he is very passionate with our Vaudevilles. He is the first to show emotion in our Vaudevilles. We’ve seen a lot of Sweeneys that are very stone-faced. And there are many moments where Sweeney is still stone-faced. But James has infused a little bit more of his passion into that character and given him more emotion in moments that we feel are appropriate. We really did a round-table with our core members and we talked through these characters in how they relate to us as Rogue. It’s certainly not to the point of overstepping the direction of the show at all. But it’s adding in a little bit of flavor that makes it Rogue’s.
I can appreciate that and I am looking forward to seeing that because it will be unique to any other Sweeney I’ve seen before and at this point I’ve got at least a dozen of them under my belt. Possibly half just from last season. But I digress. Back to the question, Katie and thank you for so patiently holding your thoughts, what are you hoping people will take away from this experience?
Katie: I hope that people leave this experience moved. I hope they’re like, “what the hell did I just see? I want to see more.” I want them to say, “This is Rogue. I want to be a part of that. I want to go see that.” We have worked so very hard with our Vaudevilles and tried from every angle to get people in and it seems like because there are so many shows where people are willing to go do a thing they already know instead of taking a chance on this thing unknown thing, it’s been a challenge. I am hopeful that if people come to see Sweeney that will allow them to see what we are and the flavor that we bring, the camaraderie that we bring, the passion that we bring, and that they will want to see more.
James: Three basic things. I want them to walk away with their minds blown, their hearts broken, and their conceptual bellies full.
Katie: Boom!
Does he do your marketing by chance because that’s a wild tagline for this show. Jesse? Thoughts on what people will take away from this experience?
Jesse: First thing, and this is with any show that I’m in, I really hope they don’t look at it as just another version of everything else. I want it to be seen as a different version. Whenever I’m doing a show, I always try to put a different spin on it. I always like to do something a little bit different. And we are all very into that. I don’t want them to walk away going, “Whoa— was that Sweeney?” Because this is still Sweeney. But I want people to walk away going, “That was a different take on this thing I love, and I loved it.” That’s really what it’s all about for me. I’m always about making it your own, within reason. We shouldn’t all just be copying one another.
Excellent. Marion, what has been your big personal takeaway from this experience? What have you learned about yourself as a performer, as a person, as a thespian, as someone involved with theatre, what has been your big learning lesson?
Marion: Johanna is very unlike me as a person. That has probably been the biggest challenge for me. I rarely have the opportunity to play a nice, sweet girl. I’ve been the wicked witch, I’ve been prostitutes, I’ve been old ladies, I’ve been killers and nasty little things, but I have never been cast as a nice, good person before. Like ever. And that is probably the biggest challenge and the greatest opportunity to take myself out of my comfort zone in that way. It has been really exciting. It’s been very eye-opening to view the world through her eyes, especially to dig into a 1790’s version of London through the eyes of someone who has optimism. And then, moving through the world today with that vision still in my head. I put that into real life. This world that we all feel trapped in, how can I see that with an ounce of optimism? It has been such a gift.
Amy: This has been tough for me. Beggar Woman is a woman who suffers from severe mental illness. And she’s in control half the time and out of control half the time. I am somebody who likes to be in control all of the time. I know, it’s shocking. But I am a very controlled— uptight is not the right word— but I like control and I like to be in control. So finding those moments to let myself go has been the biggest challenge. It’s something that I’m constantly working on at every rehearsal, finding that next level of ‘am I going far enough?’ I know they’ll stop me if I go too far, but can I push it further and make it bigger and let myself go? The biggest challenge here for me is playing against type. And also finding that sympathy and empathy, that duality of her with her mental illness but also having been a victim of horrible, horrible trauma. It’s been an interesting journey to try and encapsulate that.
Bre, what is your big personal takeaway from this?
Bre: I have kind of been dabbling more in the production side of Rogue for the past couple of years. When I went to Nursing School I really had to take a step back from the stage. Lilli and Katie have been very understanding of that. At first I was going to be on stage, but personally things went on in my life that kept me in more of an off-stage, production role. The biggest thing that I’ve learned is that I can rise to the challenge. Sondheim is no joke. The name brings the respect that it commands and you cannot approach it lightly. You have to go and attack it. I’ve learned that I can do that. Being a more authoritative person is hard for me. As a black woman, it’s very easy for that to cross over into aggressive. Being able to be a leader, to be seen as an authority figure in Rogue, knowing that I have my company at my back has been a comforting journey. I feel like I have stepped up. I feel like I have shown people in the troupe that I’m somebody that can be relied on as an expert from a musical standpoint. I’ve grown my music theory and I feel ready to step into more production-roles in the future if Lilli will have me. I’ve learned a lot about myself, I’m really proud of myself, and I’m just proud of what I’ve been able to help the cast do.
That is truly remarkable to hear that. Congratulations! Lilli, what’s your big personal takeaway?
Lilli: I don’t think I’ll be able to fully answer this until the show opens because of the nature of where we are in the rehearsal process? But I will say that coming into this— I am not an outgoing human. There’s a reason I’m more ‘behind the scenes/backstage.’
Sure. I think they call them theatrical introverts.
Lilli: Yes! But I have gotten very comfortable with the group that we have made. We have added 11 people to that group for this show because of the size of the ensemble. It was my biggest stress— how am I going to present myself to these strangers? Because I did not know any of them. What I have learned is that through the course of the past years with Rogue, I have grown enough as a human that hopefully I have presented myself in a way that is appropriate and helpful. Knowing that I can do that, and hopefully in an effective way— I mean no one has yet come up to me to say ‘You’re absolute shit’— it’s been a good confidence booster in me.
That is really wonderful to hear. And thank you for agreeing to be a part of this round-robin interview-table-talk. I know for people who tend to lean more to the introverted side of the scale, the idea of an interview can be intimidating.
Lilli: Oh I almost threw up. But I’m really glad that I’ve come out to do it. And I couldn’t do it without my troupe.
That is brilliant. I think it’s a great, diverse sampling of Rogue Core that you’ve brought to the table today and it’s been fascinating to learn more about Rogue and the dynamic that you all share— how you all operate as a troupe— as we discuss this show. Katie, what’s your big takeaway here?
Katie: I will say this. This has been one of my greatest challenges. With the Vaudevilles, Lilli and I design the Vaudevilles. I pick most of the music, she does most of the writing, I choreograph, we mush it all together; we are the team. We are the red-heads of Rogue and we have hoodies that say that. We do it together. That’s how it rolls. For this, I’m Lovette. We didn’t want the choreography to not look like Rogue. But I am Rogue choreography. So we had to manipulate the schedule so that all the ensemble was first before I ever got touched as Lovette. That has been my biggest challenge. Because there came a moment, a couple of weeks ago, where I said “you all are going to have to go to Melissa (dance captain Melissa Fazzino) I’m not on production anymore. I have to be in Lovette.” I had to put the blinders on, and know that if someone falls off the stage, someone else is going to catch them. Because I have to be able to focus on Lovette. Because she’s huge. Huge part. I’ve played Donna (Mamma Mia), I’ve played other big parts, but none of them have the amount of content that Mrs. Lovette does. For a couple of weeks, I was really, challenged and struggling because I had spent so much time on the ensemble I was worried I was the weak link! I had to jump forward and catch up! At this point, I think that it has taught me to trust everyone. They know what I’ve taught them. They’re going to kick ass. Why? Because I hand-picked every human on that stage for a reason. Every single new person, I have done shows with and I hand picked them. I know I can trust them. And I know if somebody’s butt falls off, Andy Wentsel will probably pick it up. We are okay. Everything is okay because we have each other’s backs. And I think in knowing that we have each other’s backs, I’m able to just be Lovette because I know everyone else is doing their thing. It’s trust.
James, what’s your big takeaway?
James: So for me, this is less of an actual, perpetual takeaway and more of a reaffirmation. One of the things that I’ve actually had the privilege of seeing was where this company started and where it is today. The two redheads of Rogue have been at the forefront of making these productions happen since day one. In short, that’s the nature of everything that we’ve done thus far. Every other single person builds a nest around this core. This show, what we’ve been able to do thus far, I am 100% confident will produce an absolute spectacle for our audiences when we actually hit the end of September. My biggest takeaway is that we can do this. We can do this something that is this vertically challenging for a smaller, maybe even slightly-less-funded theatre institution in a smaller part of East-Coast America. Our directors cut this entire script apart in such a manner that they were able to put all of the blocking together inside of three weeks. This show was 85% blocked and ready to go then. Now it’s been the adventure a la Victor Frankenstein of putting it back together, but we can do this. We have proved to ourselves that we can do this. And we will prove to our audiences that we can do this. And this is nothing like anything that any of our audiences have ever seen before. I have so much respect for the two women who have brought this to the stage. For Bre, for what she brought to the rehearsal. The first time I walked into one of our ensemble rehearsals was only the second time they had met and I was blown away by what they had been able to accomplish in two rehearsals. What I’ve heard from Jarrett (orchestral director Jarrett Rettman), who is directing our orchestra across the street tonight while we’re rehearsing over here and talking to you, is absolutely astounding. Every single person that’s been involved in what we’re doing has woven their own thread into this tapestry. It’s going to be beautiful. It’s going to tear people up but it’s going to be beautiful.
A beautiful disaster.
James: Yes, exactly. Nothing sums up Sweeney Todd much more than that— a beautiful disaster. My takeaway is we can do this. We will do things like this again.
You’re very good with words. Does he do your marketing?
Katie: He’s the president.
Well, well done, Mr. President. Jesse, what is your big personal takeaway?
Jesse: He stole my answer. Word for word. Just stolen. No. For real, on a personal level, this is different than how I’ve sang in a long time. I messed around a little bit in college but then I stopped because I had no self-confidence. I stopped doing theatre for a while, then I came back in and said, “yo, guys, I’m a performer. And I can sing a little bit, but I’m a performer.” But I’m really starting to feel like I’ve got some hype. I’m feeling some of that vocal confidence that I haven’t had in a little while. I’ve built up some confidence. I’m with a little jazz group. And I really like being a part of that because it’s not about how well I can sing it’s about telling the story, which I stand by. But I started going to that more because I didn’t think I sounded great. I completely fell in love with it, which helped me get here, and I’ve really built up a lot of confidence in doing this here, which I haven’t had in a long time and that’s been really nice. But for all of us, I know there were many a sleepless night as we pondered how the heck are we going to do this? But we’ve definitely can do this. This is going to be great and I’m really excited. Everybody is rising up to a level that— I don’t want to say that I didn’t think they could, by any means— but seeing it all at once is a real wow-factor.
Excellent. Here are your final two questions. One is easy, the other is less easy. Here’s the easy one— why do you want people to come out and see Sweeney Todd?
Marion: Because it’s a classic and if you haven’t seen Sweeny Todd then what are you doing?
Amy: I want people to get to know Rogue. I think it’s super important. I’ve fallen in love with this company and I want other people to fall in love with it in the way that I have.
Bre: Support local and live theatre. And come have a good time. You’re going to have a good time.
Lilli: It’s a beautiful story. We have a beautiful orchestra. We have a beautiful cast. What’s not to love?
Y’all are on this orchestra kick. We are getting this orchestra in print. Katie. Why?
Katie: It is the best way to start spooky season! Courtesy of Rogue.
James: This has been a labor of love and I really want to see Rogue Swan step up to the plate and knock one out of the park and be remembered for what we did here today.
Jesse: I just want us to be remembered…but I don’t want to say something that might sound…wrong…or step on anyone else’s toes.
Katie: You can say whatever you want to say.
I think you missed the bullet at the top of the round-robin where I said “no wrong answers so long as words are coming out of your mouth” so please, feel free!
Jesse: I want us to be remembered as THE group that did this show. This was the group, this was the performance.
Katie: I get what you’re saying.
So do I, I think, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’ll have seen more than a dozen Sweeneys by the time I get to yours but I’m going to hazard a guess that yours will pop in my memory because it’s different and unique and Rogue.
Katie: Right. Everyone has done Sweeney but we’ll be remembered as Rogue doing Sweeney.
Jesse: Exactly that.
Marion: We want to be remembered in a favorable and dynamic light.
Jesse: I want this to be remembered in a favorable and dynamic light. Exactly. Just put that in as my answer and we’re good. But I think instead I might be remembered as Undersized bright tenor.
Oh goodness! Yes, I feel like that needs to go on a shirt. Or at least be a hashtag.
Katie: We already have #SwoleForSweeney
Jesse: Oh don’t you worry, that’s gonna get brought up. I almost said that was why I wanted people to come see it. Because #SwoleForSweeney.
Lilli: I think now it’s shredded for Sweeney. He’s been working out. He’s very upset that he did not get his shirtless scene.
Katie: He wanted to come out and be like “Look at me! Look at me!” with the superman-bust-open shirt move.
Lilli: There may have been some living room performances…
I feel like there’s definitely an opportunity for a shirtless character in this show…maybe just not Anthony…
Jesse: But we’re trying to put a Rogue spin on it!
Katie: Oh we had to watch it in the living room. How many times did you have me come in and say, “act like Amy” and I’d walk in— and he’d bust out with his shirtless, “Look at me! Look at me!”
Amy: Oh yeah. I got a call. “Amy, come in the house now, we need you.” And I was like “Why.” And it was “Sing Alms, Alms,” and I was like “Why.” And they said “Just do it!” And I gave, up, came in and suddenly— Jesse— shirtless. WHOOSH. Anthony the flasher brings a whole new meaning to the show, let me tell you!
Katie: Hey if it puts asses in seats…maybe we should put that into a blooper reel or something.
Jesse: You know when I did this 10 or 12 years ago, I accidentally started the song with… “I’ll *feel* you, Johanna.”
Katie: Oh my God, I know you did. I was there, sh*tting myself. It was wild.
Oh lord. That’s an Easter Egg and a half!! And on that note, I think it’s time for the final question. And there are two schools of answer here. There’s the snapshot answer. And then there’s the ‘oh my God’ and a 20-minute pause, answer. So depending on how quickly you want to get to start your rehearsal tonight…here we go.
Amy: I’m prepared!
You cheated!
Amy: Knowing what’s coming is not cheating!
Hmm. Fine. I mean you did sit-in on one of these not too long ago! But here we go. If you had to sum up the experience of doing Sweeney Todd with Rogue Swan here in Havre de Grace in just one word, which word do you use?
Marion: This is going to be the 20-minute pausing answer. Working with Rogue Swan on this production specifically has been…come back to me.
Lord. Amy.
Amy: Passion.
As I said, two schools of answer. Bre?
Bre: Gratitude.
Lilli: Groundbreaking.
Katie: Family.
James: Monumental.
Jesse: I’ve got a compound word?
Sure. Why not?
Jesse: #SwoleForSweeney
Marion: Wait I’m still thinking! Um…shit I don’t know. Supportive is the only word that’s coming to mind. So— supportive!
That’s perfect. If we can allow the comp0und hashtag, that’s perfect. Thank you all so much for this wonderfully entertaining, informative, and persuasive experience. I hope you put many, many asses in seats, shirtless-Anthony or not, and that everyone gets to experience the thrill and excitement that is a Rogue Swan show as they tackle Sweeney Todd, I know I’m looking forward to it!
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, a Rogue Swan Theatre Company production, plays September 27th 2024 through October 5th 2024 at The STAR Centre of Havre de Grace— 700 Congress Avenue in Havre de Grace, MD. Tickets are available at the door or in advance online.
